Jaya Luintel on Gender, War, and Justice: Recounting Women in Nepal's Conflict and Transitional Peace

[00:00:12] - [Speaker 0]
Namaste and welcome to Pods by PI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurship. My name is Ridesh Sapkota. In today's episode, we have PI colleague Khushi's conversation with Jayal Witel on gender, war, and justice, recounting women in Nepal's armed conflict and transitional peace. Jaya is the co founder of The Story Kitchen, where she works with women nationwide to empower them to share their stories by providing them with the skills and platforms to vocalize their issues and experiences to seek social justice. She has over two decades of experience working as a journalist and a development practitioner.

[00:00:53] - [Speaker 0]
She is currently pursuing her PhD in applied conflict transformation studies. Krissy sits with Jaya to highlight the harrowing stories of thousands of Nepali women who survived war, atrocities, and are still struggling to find justice and reparation for their losses. Recounting women's experiences during and after the conflict, the two explore gender aspects of war and how Nepali state has failed to cater to its female survivors. The episode also features testimonies from survivors themselves, which were retrieved and translated from the archives of the story kitchens radio broadcast and voiced by Shreya Rana and Cheron Kansakar. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

[00:01:45] - [Speaker 1]
Welcome to the show, Jaya. How are you feeling today?

[00:01:47] - [Speaker 2]
I'm feeling good, Kushi. Thank you so

[00:01:49] - [Speaker 1]
much for having me. You started your career as a journalist, and for the most part of you focused on gathering stories on women. Even today, as a development practitioner, you've put efforts into highlighting women's stories that you call her story, which is a clever gendered spin on history. Why is it important to archive the past and present experiences of women?

[00:02:14] - [Speaker 2]
Let me go back to twenty years back, when I started my radio journalism career from, community radio station. It was actually the first community radio station in South Asia. I actually started working in the newsroom at that time but when I got bored with Delhi news I started going out and meeting with women and girls of Nepal at that time And every time I asked one question to them it was not like I was doing some research or I was trying to find out what they would say but I was really curious about it and I asked them what was their dream. That was the question at the end I would always ask when I interviewed a woman whether the woman be a girl or an adult woman or the elderly woman. And at that time, I realized like after listening to many women I realized that in Nepali society as a daughter we have to follow our father's dream.

[00:03:13] - [Speaker 2]
And as a wife we have to fulfill or just follow a husband's dream if the woman is married. And when the woman gets older then it is more like following their grandchildren's and particularly grandson's dream. So the way Nepali women's dream is surrounded and controlled by the male members of the family, it looks like a dream at one point. But the decision making processes and the way policies are being made. So it is all, you know, focused on the interest of men and boys.

[00:03:54] - [Speaker 2]
That is what I realized after talking with many women at that time. And I also asked myself what was my dream? And at that time I couldn't find a particular dream but I was not following my father's dream. I was doing whatever I wanted. And at that time I felt that maybe it would be, you know, good for me to have a dream in which I could use this radio medium.

[00:04:19] - [Speaker 2]
Now we call it podcast and we are doing this podcast as well. At that time radio was really popular. It was back in 1999. And I thought that, maybe I can use this media, particularly radio, and reach out to many women and young girls so that they can have their own dream. They can at least, you know, aspire to have their own dream.

[00:04:41] - [Speaker 2]
And that helped me to, you know, work with women and girls in a more deeper way. And while working with women I realized at one point that whenever I read history of Nepal, it is always about him. The word itself says his story. It is not only because because that Nepali society wanted to document its history from a men's perspective but at the same time there is also a kind of vested intention to silence the voices of women. Like when you silence people, some people then only you are amplifying the narratives of only some people of the society.

[00:05:26] - [Speaker 2]
And when you create that kind of space for people to amplify their narrative and when you silence some groups of people in the in the country or in the society or even in the family, then you will be acknowledging the people who are contributing in this society to bring the country to this level as well in terms of like political change or whether it be social change or cultural change. So that means, know, when you look into our political change chronology in Nepal, everything is documented. We know like who was leading and who brought the change, who met with the then king and who, you know, was on the street. And there were women, our grandmothers and our great grandmothers were also there whether be it in the street or whether in the negotiation tables. But nobody actually talked about it and nobody wanted to document about it.

[00:06:15] - [Speaker 2]
And now when we see the history documentation or when we read it then we feel that maybe only the men are the ones who brought this country at this level. So the way you know the silencing is happening and only the single narratives are being produced that is doing injustice to the people not only to women but also the people who are at the margin, people who are from the minority groups. They all are contributing to this country in different way. So that's why we felt that the story kitchen that I co founded with other friends, we felt that maybe we could create a space where women and those who are marginalized and also from minority groups, they can come together and share their stories with each other and we could be part of that process so that we can amplify their stories. That's how you know this idea around her story started.

[00:07:11] - [Speaker 2]
And I believe that unless we look into the past, we cannot pave the way forward. Because from the past we can learn and also unlearn what, you know, we shouldn't have done at that time. So that is why it is important. And past should be when we go back to the past that should be more collective and holistic rather than in a single narrative.

[00:07:32] - [Speaker 1]
So as we're talking about the single narrative and how the voices of women have been unheard for so long, Are these voices also different in the sense that by choosing to ignore women's experiences are we perhaps leaving out the nuances brought by gender in the experience of life. Definitely.

[00:07:58] - [Speaker 2]
And and when I say unheard, I would also like to add one word in front of unheard. Deliberately, you know, unheard. Because there are so many voices in the society. Sometimes, you know, we might not hear those voices. But the way it is happening, the gendered notion around these, you know, voices is particularly the voices of women and particularly the voices of women from marginalized and minority communities are deliberately unheard.

[00:08:27] - [Speaker 1]
So accepting the fact that the experience of life and war can be gendered, let's bring this conversation to the main subject at hand, which is the armed conflict. Recognizing that the experience of life can be gendered is not to place experiences in a hierarchy but to bring about this understanding and better interventions that are more nuanced and hence effective. Working so closely with women who endured the armed conflict, how do you observe, was the war different for women?

[00:09:00] - [Speaker 2]
When we started working on this issue back in like 2015, at that time we felt that the way you know women's voices are silenced in other political movements in Nepal, the transition justice mechanisms were being established at that time in 2014. And in Nepal, people were talking about human rights violations. Those were committed during Nepal's armed conflict but again the silencing of the women's voices and women's experience was also happening in context of transition process in Nepal as well. It again gets linked with how the women's voices are silenced in history and also in the current situation as well. And if we look at our society, it is guided by the principles of patriarchy and the values that patriarchy carries and manifest through its action.

[00:09:50] - [Speaker 2]
So when we look into the war situations, women and girls, they are actually used as weapon of war. And it is not only about the gender but the sexuality issue also comes around it. And if you look into the war, international wars as well like second world war how certain group of security forces used women and make them slave and also you know use them for their sexual pleasure as well. So this whole issue around gender and sexuality is a kind of tool that is being used in all wars around the world. And in Nepal you know from 1996 to 2006 we went through armed conflict.

[00:10:33] - [Speaker 2]
And during that time as well, women, those who with their will or without their will, they participated in the then rebellion party Nepal Communist Party of Maoist. So women were there but again what happened was you know right after the signing of peace agreement in 2006 they came back to the society. And when they came back to the society to come to their regular life, the patriarchy was still there. At first before 1996 there was patriarchy and one of the demand points put forward by the Maoist at that time under this 40 points demand there was also many points which were related to gender equality and women's empowerment and they called like women's liberation. And there were women who had actually dreamt of joining the force and fighting for their rights.

[00:11:23] - [Speaker 2]
But again after the peace agreement when they came back to the society the patriarchy was still there. And now they are facing so many stigma and they are now fighting with the society. That is one group. And another is in context of Nepal. The women who were in the community like for example in Dalit community, in Tharu communities.

[00:11:43] - [Speaker 2]
The security forces you know they went there because the war was going on and there was insurgency. But when they saw women though they were not actively affiliated with the Maoist party at that time. But the security forces actually used torture and sexual violence and rape against those women. And the more you go to the hilly regions of Nepal and you meet with the women at that time you also see them talking about how then rebellion Maoist who went on a war for freedom and rights and all those things. They also committed torture and sexual violence and rape to the women who were from the hilly regions of Nepal.

[00:12:26] - [Speaker 2]
The more you go to the hilly regions you see this kind of pattern and the more you go to the Southern Plain you find women talking about the security forces. How they committed those crimes against women. And sometimes we talk after 2006 the government says that we have gone through the process of peace. And even it says that we have completed the peace process. But when we talk about peace like have we have we even gone to these women and asked them what does peace mean to them?

[00:12:56] - [Speaker 2]
Are they you know living the peaceful life or not? In particular the women who lost their husband during war and the women who lost their loved ones, their children and their family members. And now they are taking the sole responsibility of their family. They also have to take care of the work that is in public sphere and then they also have to take the responsibility within the private sphere that is like a household. So how they are balancing their life and also with the trauma which is you know multi layer trauma is within them and there is no any kind of you know healing or psychosocial designed transitional processes.

[00:13:51] - [Speaker 3]
After my husband died, I was all alone. I had to do everything on my own. I had to take on his duties. I go to work, come back home late, and don't know where my kids are. When I see them, they ask me what's for dinner.

[00:14:04] - [Speaker 2]
I have

[00:14:05] - [Speaker 3]
to be responsible for everything and make ends meet on my own. But what can I do? I have no option but to work. Regardless of whether I'm hungry or sick, I don't have anyone to beg. Only I know how I've been living.

[00:14:33] - [Speaker 2]
But again you know when we go back to the women survivors of torture and sexual violence and rape you know those were committed during Nepal's armed conflict Nobody even, you know, has gone to them to ask like what happened to them. That is the most, you know, pity thing that I see that and nobody actually recognized them. When I say nobody the state you know didn't recognize because in 2007 right after the signing of peace agreement when it brought forward this interim relief program in the definition of conflict victims, it actually narrowed down the definition of conflict victims. It only said that those people whose family members were murdered or killed at that time and disappeared like by force and those people who got injured and with disability. So these are only the categories it defined.

[00:15:28] - [Speaker 2]
It actually didn't say the people who were tortured are also the victims of conflict and those people who were raped and sexually abused are also the conflict of victims. It didn't say that. So it was back in 2007 at that time the armed conflict was just ended and there were local peace committees in each district. They were being formed and there were women who felt that okay maybe if we go to the government agencies and if we register our cases then maybe justice can be felt. So they went to those peace committees and they said that you can imagine like how difficult it was for women to come out from their home and gather in a group and go to the government offices and say that I was raped during conflict.

[00:16:13] - [Speaker 2]
And the people who are working at the local peace committee they said that there is no such category in which we can register you. So you can see how the state has silenced the survivors in a systematic way the survivors of sexual violence and rape at

[00:16:26] - [Speaker 1]
that time. But because of this you know of this continuous advocacy and also empowering women on the ground There are some good things that is happening as a foundation to reach out to these women and to correct that blunder. I think we've gone ahead a little bit. So in order to backtrack, maybe we should focus on what the state did do. In the aftermath of a decade long conflict, the state established the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and Commission of Investigation on Enforced Disappeared Persons in hopes of rectifying the human rights abuse caused during the war.

[00:17:02] - [Speaker 1]
However, today, almost seventeen years after the signing of the Comprehensive Peace Accord, the Human Rights Watch has recently expressed its concerns over the stalled transitional justice of Nepal. What did the state do in terms of establishing transitional peace? And I know you've just mentioned this very briefly, but what ways did it feel to cater to the needs of the victim, particularly to pay attention to the gender nuances that were present in the struggles of the victims.

[00:17:34] - [Speaker 2]
It was in 2014 these two commissions were formed and we also need to look the formation of these two commissions because in Nepal there were many commissions were formed to look into the violation of human rights. They didn't say human rights but like for example were Malik Ayog and Raya Mazi Ayog. Those commissions were also formed to look into the violations of right during certain kind of movements like 1990s movement and also the movement in April 2006. But those commissions were formed by the ministerial cabinet. But these two commissions that you mentioned, truth commission and investigation of enforced disappearance, these commissions were established through the act and through the parliament.

[00:18:22] - [Speaker 2]
So the overall legal architecture is different. That is one thing. Which is you know if we look from the positive way, it was a good start though it got established very late. Eight years. It took eight years like after the signing of peace occurred.

[00:18:37] - [Speaker 2]
But it was not accepted by the victims or survivor groups or the civil society organizations working on human rights. There was major one reason. Because in the TRC Act, on the basis of which these two commissions were formed, it said that on the cases of gross human rights violation, amnesty can be provided. And the victims group and the civil society organization they went against it and they also filed the case in the supreme court and supreme court in 2016 gave the ruling that that should be amended. So that is the major issue for this installment.

[00:19:14] - [Speaker 2]
And because of that the truth commissions were formed but they couldn't function well because without the support of survivors, the support of victims it cannot function. And there was also no any support from the international communities because international communities also said that without amendment, particularly on this clause related to amnesty, they cannot support. So that is the major issue and now we're still fighting for this amendment but again the government is when I say government I am also bringing the political parties as well. I see that because of this the lack of political will that is the major you know issue. If all the political parties really come together and think about how to resolve this issue by putting the victim at the center and how they can provide justice to the victim then it can be resolved.

[00:20:11] - [Speaker 2]
But everybody is trying to use this transition justice issue as a bargaining tool like whenever they want they can just take it out as a card and then they can play. But the truth commissions which were formed they also did some work. They asked the survivors to register their cases. Truth commission registers 63,000 cases and they have said that out of those 63,315 cases are of the sexual violence and rape survivors but they haven't you know made it public. It was just you know shared on one of the speeches done by the commissioner.

[00:20:49] - [Speaker 2]
And when they asked for the registration there was no any kind of gender sensitive mechanism. And sometimes I feel that the number 300 I don't see it as a number you know I see it as the survivors of rape and sexual violence. How they gather courage to despite of this insensitive in terms of gender and in terms of victim insensitive truth commission despite of that environment they came forward and they gather courage to register those cases.

[00:21:18] - [Speaker 1]
So I understand that one of the lackings in the current institutional procedures to justice are is the lack of gender sensitive mechanism. What are the other institutional or procedural barriers to justice for these women currently?

[00:21:35] - [Speaker 2]
If we just talk about the women survivors of Nepal Armed Conflict or the human rights violations those were committed during armed conflict These truth commissions are the major institutions when we talk about the justice. And these truth commissions are mandated to document the truth and recommend the reparation and also recommend for the further investigation on different cases as well. So for these women you know the justice mechanism is there and I have also you know shared with you how these two commissions are kind of not in function. They are functional but without any function. But when you look the justice from the broader perspective how women are fighting to get justice in other cases of rights violation in Nepal, there are many young and adolescent women who are coming out about and talking about the sexual abuse and even the cases of rape.

[00:22:30] - [Speaker 2]
But the way it has been dealt by our justice system, it is actually giving frustration. But at the same time I feel that the way justice system dealt with these cases, there is some kind of unmasking happening. It is letting us know how our justice system looks like. How it perceive Nepali women. How our justice system is so patriarchal.

[00:22:56] - [Speaker 2]
Know how our justice system does not accept the existence of women. How our justice system does not believe the women and girls.

[00:23:17] - [Speaker 4]
When it was my son's turn to get his citizenship made, the state said it could not establish his citizenship based on a missing dad. They insisted that I declare his death, even though he had just been missing. But later, when my son finished his high school, the same state wouldn't accept a citizenship based on just a mother's lineage. I knocked multiple doors to solve this for him,

[00:23:40] - [Speaker 3]
but couldn't.

[00:23:41] - [Speaker 4]
And now, because of his citizenship, my son couldn't further his studies nor get a good job.

[00:24:13] - [Speaker 1]
As you were talking about, these cases where the institutions for justice have disappointed or demeaned female victims. What are some instances that come to your mind? Particular examples of moments where this happened?

[00:24:30] - [Speaker 2]
Like for example when the accused they were released from the court how people went with garlands, how people put red abir on their forehead and how they were smiling. And another instance that come to my mind is the social media. And when we say justice system it is not only about all these structural mechanisms. On the social media you know the way women survivors were criticized, way women survivors who came out and talked about the case they were stigmatized and many people you know maimed them. So you can also see how our society sees women.

[00:25:16] - [Speaker 2]
How they perceive women. How they don't believe the women. And when I say Nepali society it is all the structures as well. The societal structure or the political structure or the the bureaucratic structure. It does not believe in women.

[00:25:39] - [Speaker 5]
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[00:26:00] - [Speaker 5]
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[00:26:29] - [Speaker 5]
Now let's get back to the episode.

[00:26:33] - [Speaker 1]
And I think this comes back to how you started this conversation by stating how how intricately patriarchy exists in the Nepali society. Yes.

[00:26:44] - [Speaker 2]
And it is even like going deeper and deeper. And not only it is like being deep but the spreading is also there.

[00:26:52] - [Speaker 1]
It's interesting that you talk about society and social aspects to justice because and this has come up, a lot of times today in this conversation. In a close knit collectivist society like that of Nepal, which still clings dearly to patriarchal values like we just, said, how do social settings, family, neighbors, friends respond to victims in their pursuit of justice and how does this impact them?

[00:27:25] - [Speaker 2]
The response here you know gets linked with our family first. I always you know say that family is our first political institution. The way you know power is being played and power is being used in our society is really very complicated. And I do remember an elderly woman she's from Jazar Court in one of our workshops you know at the end we asked like how did you feel and you know what is your takeaway or we were just you know asking for the reflection and I'm not sure I might be able to translate this in English in exact way the way she said She said that if people within our home if they listen to us then people outside will listen to us and so that means if people within our home within our family respects us then only people outside will respect us. Those two sentences actually are maybe you know are not written in any theoretical book but the message related with patriarchy.

[00:28:29] - [Speaker 2]
These two sentences you know give How women are not believed, how women are not trusted, how women are not respected. So all these issues they do start from the family and it goes up or down to the society. And the people who go to the state system they also carry the same notion. The way they see women, the way you know they treat women, it is all manifested through our laws, through our action and through our interaction with women and it is also manifested in the public bosses as well. So you know we don't need to go anywhere else to see how women are treated.

[00:29:15] - [Speaker 4]
Three years after my husband went missing, I was diagnosed with stones, for which I had been prescribed some medicine. My in laws spread the rumor that those medicines I took were contraceptives because I was promiscuous. They didn't give me my husband's inheritance, and eventually I could no longer afford my medicines.

[00:29:48] - [Speaker 1]
I want to take this conversation back to the idea of institutional and procedural barriers specifically talking about the recent development in March where a bill was proposed to make amendments to several provisions of transitional justice law. This has caused quite a stir with multiple human rights associations like the Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch voicing their concerns over the bill. What are some of these proposed changes that have been presented to the Parliament and what effects can we expect them to have on the chances of justice delivery?

[00:30:24] - [Speaker 2]
The bill that has been tabled in the Parliament recently in March, there is like, we need to go back to a year back when Nepal government appointed Govinda Bandhi as a minister of law and he is well renowned and an expert in transitional justice and after being appointed as a minister of law he invited civil society organizations and victims group and he said that this is one of the mandates that I have to amend the act TRC act and we believed him, we supported him and the consultation was really participatory and civil society organizations supported that consultation. As a a CSO working with the women survivors, we and other civil society organization actually demanded to have a separate and confidential consultation with the survivors of sexual violence only. And they agreed. And he also listened to the women and he actually asked for the apology and that was for the first time. A minister actually asked for the apology with the women that the state actually couldn't address their issue for such a long time.

[00:31:38] - [Speaker 2]
And women actually gave so many ideas and suggestions that should be incorporated in the bill or amendment document. But at the end when the bill was drafted, he actually did not consult with the survivors and the civil society organization. And in that document there were few things which we did not agree. One was the categorization of the human rights violation. Under the gross violation of human rights it said that murdered with cruelty.

[00:32:10] - [Speaker 2]
But under the violation of human rights category it said that murder. And those human rights violations which were listed under the human rights violation, they were said to be resolved through reconciliation. So there was no any room that those cases can be taken to the special court for the investigation or for the legal processes. So wait. Let me

[00:32:35] - [Speaker 1]
just ask you for clarification. There was a distinction between murder and

[00:32:42] - [Speaker 2]
Murder with cruelty. Cruelty. Yeah. Murder with cruelty was kept under the gross, you know, violation of human rights. And the draft bill said that the human rights violations, those who were under the gross human rights violation cannot be granted amnesty.

[00:32:56] - [Speaker 2]
So, that is the ruling of the Supreme Court as So,

[00:32:59] - [Speaker 1]
it was this. So, it's almost as Like, example murder Murder means lesser evil.

[00:33:06] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. So, what did they do was, under the gross violation of human rights, they said murder with cruelty. And under the violation of human rights, they said murder only. So murder and even like sexual they put sexual violence under the violation of human rights and they put rape under the gross violation of human rights. And I asked this question to the minister like why you have put this sexual violence under that can be resolved through reconciliation.

[00:33:31] - [Speaker 2]
I asked him why this sexual violence is under this violation of human rights. So there is no any room to take it to the special court and he said that there is a problem because sexual violence the way it is defined in our penal code is totally different. If I look at you with the intention of sexual So that definition actually boils down to all these issues as well. And at that time, that could not be passed. The bill was taken to the Human Rights Committee within the Parliament and it was discussed.

[00:34:03] - [Speaker 2]
But the Parliament was dismissed at that time. But now the one which has been tabled recently in March, it has even more problems. It talks about reparation as a right of the victim. That is a good thing. But again the categorization is not resolved.

[00:34:16] - [Speaker 2]
And there are also some issues. This is being said by the victims group and survivors that rather than protecting the rights of the victims it actually protects the perpetrator. So that is the issue going on around it. But now looking at the political parties or the party which is in the government they say that let's resolve it quickly. And the question is it's been already seventeen years.

[00:34:41] - [Speaker 2]
Now why you are saying that you know we should resolve it quickly. At least we need to give some time to bring the law according to the supreme court verdict and also according to the international human rights standard. So why Ras?

[00:34:55] - [Speaker 1]
Seeing how it's been almost seventeen years that the war took place and the the recent developments in this subject only gets grimmer. If justice, in its current understanding and its mainstream understanding calls, the kind of justice that calls for court trials, cases, penalties. If this is out of reach for the victims, does that mean they're done for? Or does it mean that there are still ways in which justice can be reimagined so that victims can move on with their lives.

[00:35:35] - [Speaker 2]
I believe that there is no alternative of justice but we can always you know redefine justice. And it is not like you know someone who is sitting in the room and rewriting the definition or reimagining but again asking with the people who are demanding justice what does justice mean to them and also not only defining it from one's perspective or the definition should not be informed by single narrative you know the the narrative that we have been talking about you know from the beginning. So it can be reimagined definitely but there should not be either justice or something else. So that is we need to be very clear about it. And justice, what I believe is, you know, justice is a concept that you know it is it is abstract concept sometimes.

[00:36:31] - [Speaker 2]
But once I feel justice, if I'm demanding for justice and if I feel that justice, the justice can be felt. And then only the people who are demanding justice can say that okay I have received or I have felt justice. This is what we have learned from the women we with whom we have been working you know since 2015 like it's been almost eight years. They have taught us that you know only the justice that is provided through state structures like legal justice does not in particular in the cases of sexual violence and rape in the context of our society. It actually does not create a space for people to you know feel justice.

[00:37:11] - [Speaker 2]
They might you know there is state accountability and then the perpetrator also you know gets accountable through these legal processes. And also the ending of impunity is also you know facilitated through this process. But what happens to her when a perpetrator of rape is prosecuted? When she goes back to her home what happens to her? That is the question.

[00:37:35] - [Speaker 2]
And women asked at that time like what will happen to us if something legal or our perpetrator is prosecuted? What happens will be their husband you know if they are married their husband won't accept them. There will be more stigma and the society also looks them as you know someone who was raped. So this whole stigma and the way people see women that actually does not allow her to feel that justice. There is no dignity.

[00:38:07] - [Speaker 2]
Justice should always come with dignity. When there is no dignity then justice cannot be felt. And how can we create that space where women or men or you know those who don't consider them as men or women how they can feel dignified when justice is being delivered to them. So that is the important part.

[00:38:42] - [Speaker 4]
People daunt me asking why I still haven't done the funeral rites of my missing husband. How can I declare his death when I haven't seen his body?

[00:38:52] - [Speaker 2]
I don't know

[00:38:52] - [Speaker 4]
what the truth is. In the state's eyes, I am not a single woman yet, and I cannot receive any of its welfare. I don't have anyone to seek help from, and if anyone does support me, people assume we are illegitimately related. I can't talk to others, walk with others, dress well. People just question my integrity.

[00:39:31] - [Speaker 2]
And when we interacted with women they taught us that justice, now we call it holistic framework of justice. They taught us that there is also whole domain around self. If a woman gets raped, then she feels that there is a guilt within her. And once we create a space or environment for her to come out of that guilt, then she can feel self justice. Otherwise in Nepali society you know what our society tells a woman is it was your fault.

[00:39:59] - [Speaker 2]
And that's how that guilt you know is developed. So that self justice is really important. Once she comes out of that guilt and shame or if we create that conducive environment for her to come out of that. And the moment of her you know coming out of that guilt and shame is extraordinary. That is where you know all this transformation happens.

[00:40:21] - [Speaker 2]
I'll give you one example. There is a woman her husband was a teacher and her husband was killed by a den Maoist at that time and see they had a boy. And her in laws actually took away the boy and manipulated the boy her son saying that your mother is the cause of your father's death. The boy is already now in his 20s. When we met with her she told that I really want to know who killed my husband and why did they kill him and I really want the people who killed my husband I want them in the jail.

[00:41:01] - [Speaker 2]
But when my son, you know, starts seeing me mom in a loving way, then I would feel justice. So you can see like how people are defining, you know, she's also demanding this whole, you know, legal justice, but she's also demanding the justice from the family. And when I met with her like a year ago I asked her how is your son and then and do you live together now or not and she told me that ma'am now my son has started, you know, telling me mom. And when I saw her eyes at that time, there was a spark, like, there was a different kind of a spark when she was telling this story. So that that feeling, you know, that family justice is whole there.

[00:41:47] - [Speaker 2]
How the family can play an important role for a woman to feel justice. And this legal justice is there. So self, family, and legal, and the societal. All these four domains when come together, all this holistic justice can be delivered, then maybe we can imagine social justice can happen. Sometimes when we talk about justice, we always think about the court and how the judges you know deliver the justice.

[00:42:14] - [Speaker 2]
But it is not only about the judges who sit in the courtroom but also our family members in our family. Our peers and our neighbors in our society. How they create that environment for a woman to feel justice with dignity. That is how justice can be reimagined.

[00:42:35] - [Speaker 1]
If justice is such a holistic, goal and there are multifaceted aspects to it how can Nepal break away from its stalled transitional justice and move ahead so to say? Are there perhaps lessons in transitional justice and peace from other conflict stricken countries that have moved on with more grace and moved on more holistically than Nepal has?

[00:43:01] - [Speaker 2]
You know when we talk about transitional justice these four pillars of transitional justice they always come. You know truth, justice, reparation and an institutional reform. So the first thing is these four pillars should not be planned in a sequence. They should go in a parallel way. The first thing is you know These four pillars should not be planned in a sequential.

[00:43:28] - [Speaker 2]
Let's first do the justice or the truth or then reparation. Let's first focus five years for truth and then and reparation. It should not be done. Now it is being done that way. You know we are just talking about the justice only.

[00:43:40] - [Speaker 2]
That is how you know it is being challenging. Now we are just talking about justice. We are not talking about the institutional reform. We are not talking about the reparation. We are not talking about the truth documentation.

[00:43:53] - [Speaker 2]
That is one thing. And another thing is you know looking into other countries like for example Cambodia. The war was there you know for more than thirty years. The way they dealt when they you know realized that we should deal about it many of the survivors were not there. So they created you know this hybrid court and I had opportunity to talk with the person who was involved in that hybrid court which is a mechanism where international mechanism also support and the national mechanism they work together.

[00:44:28] - [Speaker 2]
And I asked him like what are the advantages and disadvantages of hybrid court and why Cambodia decided to go with that. And he told that you know many people were killed and then when they started this peace process and this transition justice process there were no any people with expertise. And he told me that because we didn't have any people who had legal background or other things so they had to go with this you know they call it extraordinary. ECCC they call it. We were actually forced to hire or get other people, export from other countries.

[00:45:01] - [Speaker 2]
And in Cambodian case there were also women whose oral testimony was recorded and then they were also they also got opportunity to go to the hearing. But again you know they brought only the cases of forced marriage. They did not explicitly talk about the sexual violence. So they framed the sexual violence from forced marriage. So you can see how patriarchy plays.

[00:45:25] - [Speaker 2]
That is one example you know and what we can learn from it is from the case of Cambodia is let's not delay it. Let's not delay. The more you delay you won't have the survivors even to talk about what happened to them and the truth will be no more there. So that is one thing that is what we can learn from there. And I was in Rwanda in August 2022.

[00:45:48] - [Speaker 2]
The reports I read about Rwanda I really liked the way, though it is being criticized you know internationally by international human rights lawyers, know, it did not follow the international human rights standards. So all those you know things are there. The criticism is definitely there when we look it from the international human rights perspective. But the way they brought together justice and healing, that was really extraordinary. That is what we we should and we can learn from Rwandan experience.

[00:46:17] - [Speaker 2]
And we asked like why you you know chose this approach like, you know, justice and healing and reconciliation together? Because they said that, you know, during the it was just hundred days of was like genocide. It was just hundred days. But many people were killed and then many people, many women were raped. Even male members were also raped.

[00:46:37] - [Speaker 2]
So without reconciliation and without healing, moving forward was difficult. Even the justice, you know, from the legal process would not reconcile or create that space for healing. So they came up with this idea of Gachaca and Gachaca is kind of like Dubo in Nepali like the small grass and they would sit you know it is a culture in Rwanda that how they sit together and then resolve the conflict. So that's how that this Gachaca court system. And Gachaca court system is more like you know in in society in community they choose the judges and they they bring them together.

[00:47:11] - [Speaker 2]
It was very important you know according to my friends you know Adelaide and Joseph in in Rwanda, they said that without that process we could not, you know, move forward. So because there was a neighbor like next to my house, there is a neighbor who killed my father. And every day, you know, I need to interact with him or her. So unless we bring them together and then unless the the perpetrator asks for apology the reconciliation was difficult. So we can you know learn from other other countries as well on how to how to create a space for this truth and reparation and also for justice and also institutional reform from other countries.

[00:47:50] - [Speaker 1]
Something that really struck a chord for me, in the answer that you just said is the idea of self justice. Can you elaborate more on this? How can how can we help a person achieve self justice? Or how has TSK done that so far?

[00:48:10] - [Speaker 2]
Yeah. From my experience, you know, working, with TSK and applying all these, you know, approaches, and working with women survivors, what I have, witnessed is in a patriarchal society like Nepal, women are blamed if they face some kind of violation. And if they talk about it, they are not supported, but rather they are blamed. So creating that space for them to learn that it was not their fault and creating that safe space according to their definition not from my or your definition where they feel safe. They can be vulnerable but they feel that they are safe there.

[00:48:53] - [Speaker 2]
So creating that safe space for them to listen from other women like them. So that they build a sense of collectivism And they feel that I am not alone. And I have started realizing that that feeling of I am not alone is really very powerful. And the moment you know they realize that it was not my fault, then that facilitates the process for them to come out of that shame and guilt. And that is the point where the journey of self justice starts.

[00:49:31] - [Speaker 2]
And another thing I have witnessed around this self justice is that moment of breaking silence is really important because when a survivor breaks her silence or when a survivor breaks his silence or when a survivor break their silence, they shift the blame and shame to the perpetrator. They disclose the perpetrator. Because unless they break the silence they are keeping all the shame and blame but when they start telling that this person did this to me then they are slowly shifting that blame and shame to the perpetrator. So it is not only they are talking about their own trauma but they are also they are also letting go that blame and shame from their own responsibility. And in a metaphorical way I sometimes you know bring this example of onion.

[00:50:24] - [Speaker 2]
The trauma and the burden of shame and guilt. At one level the trauma is also there like you know in layers, multi layered trauma. And once they start you know peeling off each layer of that onion that becomes lighter. And it is same with that shame and guilt as well. They start, you know, peeling off each layer of that onion and at the end, you know, the core is there.

[00:50:48] - [Speaker 2]
The core will always be there. They will always remember. They will always it will always be in their memory, but the burden is, you know, shed off. So that is how that journey of self justice starts. And I have seen like many women who used to cry all the time during our workshop now they are taking the lead.

[00:51:08] - [Speaker 2]
And around this self justice we what we have also applied is women to women and survivor to survivor approach where we equip and transfer the knowledge and skills to the women survivors to become justice reporters. So they reach out to other women like them, survivors like them and they have conversation and record and document their truth as well. But at the same time you know when a survivor meets another survivor there is a kind of like peer healing is also happening. They listen from each other and they learn from each other. So that healing is also happening and there is also reconciliation happening.

[00:51:45] - [Speaker 2]
Like for example, wife of the police who was killed during wartime now, she is going to another woman who was raped by the police at that time. So when she listens to the the survivor, so there is also reconciliation is happening in the community as well. And at the end what I would like to say is silence and injustice. You know these two are best friends. And unless we break their friendship, the journey to justice is really very difficult.

[00:52:15] - [Speaker 2]
And the state structure, the patriarchy, you know whatever the structures that we have been talking about in this, you know, in this in the last hour, they always you know try to build the friendship between injustice and silence. But as human right defenders, as people who don't believe in injustice, we always need to think about how we break the friendship between injustice and silence. That was very well put, Zoya. As we talk about the state, something that came up

[00:52:45] - [Speaker 1]
to my mind was about the international commitments that Nepal has currently. If you could just briefly explain what they are and if upholding them, aligning with them would help the transitional justice process in Nepal.

[00:53:02] - [Speaker 2]
On this point I would like to bring two examples and I would like to mostly focus it on the cases of conflict related sexual violence. The first thing is Nepal as a member of UN system. It has given its commitment that it will develop the National Action Plan to implement UN Security Council Resolution thirteen twenty five and eighteen twenty which are the resolutions for women peace and security. So that is one international instrument we can see and Nepal has already implemented first round of national action plan in 2017. But the first national action plan actually did not address the needs or even did not acknowledge the survivors of sexual violence.

[00:53:45] - [Speaker 2]
Thirteen twenty five resolution talks about women's participation in peace process and eighteen twenty in particular talks about the prevention and the response to the sexual violence those are committed during war time. So these two resolutions are really very prominent in context of Nepal as well. And it is good that in September 2022 Nepal government has endorsed national action plan second phase and apparently you know this is the first ever document Nepal government has you know produced or endorsed or passed you know whatever we can say which acknowledges that Nepali women had to face sexual violence and rape during Nepal's armed conflict. So this is one instrument we can look at. And another is convention to eliminate all forms of discrimination.

[00:54:33] - [Speaker 2]
Sidoy which was ratified by Nepal government in 1979. So this document also lays the foundation for Nepal to address the conflict related sexual violence cases of Nepal's armed conflict and this CEDAW committee in its concluding observation on the sixth periodic report of Nepal has provided four recommendations. It talked about endorsement of National Action Plan which Nepal government has recently done. It also talks about creating this you know gender friendly mechanisms within the truth commissions and it talks about the omission of the statute of limitation to register the cases because during the armed conflict time it was just thirty five days but at that time the status structures were not functioning so women continue report about it. So the omission of the statute of limitation would also allow the survivors of sexual violence of war time to come out and register the cases.

[00:55:31] - [Speaker 2]
So these are some of the international human rights instrument which also actually supporting the activism that is happening in Nepal and also making the government, accountable.

[00:55:44] - [Speaker 1]
So it's great that you tied up the role of civil society organizations as we head towards the end of this conversation. What can the Nepali state do for organizations like TSK to support your efforts to further them?

[00:55:58] - [Speaker 2]
As civil society organization the way we see our work is you know we are supporting the government and the support and the collaboration should be like both ways and there is also example the way the second phase of national action plan was formulated and now the Ministry of Home Affairs is leading the implementation. So that was also formulated through this collaboration and I was also part of the drafting committee. So it was really good to work with the government and support in its effort. Because I believe that government has power but sometimes it cannot reach to the people the way it should be reaching. Where the strength of the civil society organisation can be mobilized.

[00:56:39] - [Speaker 2]
So that's how we bring all our capacities together and then there is an agenda, there is we are working for the cause, whether it be the government or the civil society organization. Because we all believe in ensuring human rights and it is the state's accountability and responsibility to protect the human rights of its citizens. So we are supporting the government. We are actually facilitating that process as well. And we are actually supporting its work.

[00:57:08] - [Speaker 2]
So there should be a kind of welcoming space for collaboration. But again looking from the broader perspective, the space of civil society should not be shrinked and it should be expanded and there should be more space for collaboration with the government and other stakeholders including civil society organizations. Is there anything that you would like to share or say to our audiences listening in? First of all thank you for listening, and from wherever you are listening I would like to request you to amplify the voices of survivors of sexual violence. Those were committed during Nepal's armed conflict and raise this issue you know wherever you go and ask the people to talk about Nepal as well and not only question its transitional justice process process but also give some insight on how it can resolve this issue by putting the survivors at the center.

[00:58:13] - [Speaker 2]
And also you know support the cause and show your solidarity when it is needed. Because when we get in a solidarity then that also gives us power. I'm saying this as a human right defender that when you show solidarity then that gives me hope because there are also other people like me who is also fighting for justice and responding to injustice. So show your solidarity and amplify the voice and and help us to,

[00:58:44] - [Speaker 1]
you know, raise this, voice. Thank you so much for joining us today in Pods by PEI, Jaya. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, expertise on this matter and also sharing with us, the audio archives from the story kitchen.

[00:59:01] - [Speaker 2]
Thank you so much Kushi. Thank you for having me. I'm so thrilled, to talk about the work that we have been doing but also to amplify again the voice and needs and the concerns of the women survivors of Nepal. Thank you.

[00:59:17] - [Speaker 0]
Thanks for listening to Pods by PEI. I hope you enjoyed Kwisi's conversation with Jaya Lutel on gender, war and justice, recounting women in Nepal's armed conflict and transitional peace. Today's episode was produced by Nizan Rai with support from Kusi Hang, Saurabh Lama, Cheron Kungsakar, and me Rideshapkuta. The episode was recorded at PI Studio and was edited by me Rideshapkuta. Our theme music is courtesy of Rohit Sake from Jindabad.

[00:59:47] - [Speaker 0]
If you liked today's episode, please subscribe to our podcast. Also, please do us a favor by sharing us on social media and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to the show. For PI's video related content, please search for Policy entrepreneurs on YouTube. To catch the latest from us on Nepal's Policy and Politics, please follow us on Twitter tweet2pei and on Facebook policyentrepreneursinc. You can also visit pei.center to learn more about us.

[01:00:20] - [Speaker 0]
Thanks once again from me, Ritesh. We'll see you soon in our next episode.