Rebroadcast: Sunil Babu Pant on The Road [Bumps] to Marriage Equality in Nepal

[00:00:00] Hey there, this is Kushifra and PEI. This month, sexual and gender minorities and their compassionate allies all gathered in different parts of the country to celebrate pride. The elaborate parades were organized by different youth groups to celebrate queer identity and give visibility to issues related

[00:00:18] to LGBTQ rights and representation through collective action. So this week we are bringing back an insightful conversation with Sunil Babu Pant, a prominent advocate for LGBTQ rights, focusing on the issue of achieving marriage equality in Nepal. The episode is a compelling

[00:00:36] exploration of the legal, societal and cultural barriers that have shaped Nepal's approach to queer existence and issues and provides a nuanced understanding of the complexities involved in advocating for LGBTQ rights in Nepal. Join us as we reflect on this crucial conversation

[00:00:54] gathering valuable insights into the progress and obstacles on the road to achieving equality for all. Thank you for tuning in. Namaste and welcome to PODs by PEI, a policy discussion series brought to you by Policy Entrepreneurs Inc.

[00:01:23] My name is Kushihang. In today's episode we have former PEI colleague, Chedon Consecar's conversation with Sunil Babu Pant on the road bumps to marriage equality in Nepal. Chedon and Sunil discussed the history and status of marriage equality in Nepal.

[00:01:39] The two draw upon Sunil's first hand experiences to recall the landmark 2008 case Sunil Babu Pant and others' first-ess government of Nepal which pleaded for equal rights to marriage among other things. They then explore the significance of marriage equality not only in the terms

[00:01:56] of human rights but also society and the economy. Sunil Babu Pant is the founder of the Blue Diamond Society and LGBTQ rights organization in Nepal. Pant is also the first openly gay national-level legislator in Asia. As a member of the parliament, his legislative goals included

[00:02:15] equal justice, civil and economic rights for the queer community. He led the landmark supreme court case that decriminalized homosexuality and added a different category of third gender in the Nepalic citizenship. He now continues to push forward those agendas as an activist. We hope

[00:02:33] you enjoy the conversation. Namaste this is Thedon. Namaste this is Sunil. Welcome to the show Sunil, such a pleasure to have you on pods. Thank you very much for inviting me for this program. Of course of course so let's get on with

[00:02:52] the conversation shall we? So the case Sunil Babu Pant versus the government of Nepal was a landmark case for Nepal. Revolutionary not just for Nepal but the world as a whole. Back in 2007 even America,

[00:03:05] a country heralded for individual liberties had yet to legalize gay marriage. Now for the listeners who don't know could you explain this case and shed some light on why it's revered as such an

[00:03:17] important case in Nepal's history? Thank you. It's a landmark case because it was first in the history of Nepal such a case has been brought to the supreme court of Nepal by sexual and gender minority communities demanding all the discriminatory laws to be scrapped or amended but also

[00:03:39] demanding to end all kinds of violence especially state sponsored violence they used to be a lot of police and security brutality against this community then but also defying binary gender. So Nepal became the first country when this verdict came from the supreme court back in 2007 that

[00:04:01] recognized more than two genderes. So it was really remarkable but also shed a lot of inspiration to all South Asian and to the rest of the world. What interests me and I'm sure it's the same for

[00:04:14] listeners is why did we see this significant traction in 2007? What were the conditions enablers or even triggers that mobilized groups and institutions like you to pursue the agenda of the LGBTQ community? Perhaps it's timing perhaps is you know the movement was moving along

[00:04:36] and reached to a milestone where we were keeping people of challenging the government because when Bluedam in society was first registered in 2001 it was very difficult time about going through. As Maoist insides in se was going on they were a lot of security presence in

[00:04:55] the street a lot of LGBT IQ people especially the third gender or the transgender people were in Tarii I think because they survived in begging during the wedding in childbirth so they had to travel

[00:05:09] religious to village and they would come at a crossroad where other side is controlled by Maoist and this side is controlled by the army. So they used to be raped by both sides so that kind of

[00:05:23] atrocities were going on then royal massacre happened the same year then after a couple of years when the king then there would be Kramshah to control of the you know took all direct power dissolved the parliament and imposed state of emergency that's where security forces were roaming

[00:05:43] across major cities with impunity so was worse for community like us were very marginalized. Back then we survived and worked hard started documenting even dites violations even though there was no justice we could access to and then 2006 there was a populist movement to

[00:06:06] take place against the monarchies direct rule and the parties and people were demanding to restore the democracy. So we also took ourselves to the streets and enjoying that democratic protest to reinstate democracy that's where we found a bit of alliances the end you the big end

[00:06:26] you is then become friends the political parties were inviting us because there were very few people actually in the beginning joining to the streets so they started giving a space so building alliances started by joining this populist movement and then the pieces occurred to happen between

[00:06:43] the Maoist and the government then there was interim government was set up then they were also calling for interim constitution for suggestions to be included and then we did submit our but I realized after a couple of months that the suggestion we submitted filed them was

[00:07:02] discarded into the dustbin not even table properly so those very disappointing and I would seek to the same leaders who were calling us you know and then telling us they would support after the democracy reinstated or refusing to have a meeting with me. So 2007 I saw Supreme Court

[00:07:20] was doing all the fantastic thing that time you know even defying the order from the king and the other you know kind of a democratic decisions were taken down by the courts the image was was

[00:07:33] very positive about the court so we decided maybe it's the time to take the government to the court you know we can understand the autocratic king not listening to us and then mobilizing but

[00:07:43] the democratic forces who are now who promises so much you know liberty freedom and all formalizing lies and everyone gender sexuality everything but they were refusing to meet even so that's the trigger point then I quickly called a lawyer drafted the red petition

[00:08:04] I didn't have legal languages much I still you know do not know a lot about legal and litigation procedures but so look this is why we want we want and of these violence especially liberal and

[00:08:16] police but also there are so many laws against us we want that change we want equality we also want protection from discrimination and I have possible also marriage so this is a you know quite

[00:08:30] a big ambitious red petition we filed the hearing started immediately and after forth hearing they court give fantastic decision if I think the first statement was sexual and gender minority communities are natural because there were some you know people were talking about

[00:08:53] on naturality of being you know sexual minority agenda minority so that was the statement then the three executive ordered government issue the court issued for the government to implement first one to recognize that gender issue the citizenship ID and passport to the agenda identity

[00:09:15] that was landmark first in the world in a modern world to recognize that the second was to scrapen a meant all discriminated laws in policies and the third one was set up a committee to

[00:09:27] study on the Nepalese society what impact it would bring if we are allowed to have a same sexual relationship registered so they took six years but yeah they submitted a report in 2015 the committee also started pretty late the government took long I think four years to just

[00:09:52] form the committee so it took quite a while but they did a good job and then they recommended the government to do a full in a marriage so that's where we are now other the citizenship ID is given

[00:10:06] it started giving it from 2011 men women and other so there's three gender categories so just to be clear although the protection of the queer community was granted by the court the verdict on gay marriage hadn't been made yet but what was done was a committee was

[00:10:25] dispatched to study the repercussions burdens and benefits of legalizing same sex marriage so Sunil can you share with us how a study of this sort is conducted or more precisely how this committee did it and what were the findings and recommendations to the court

[00:10:42] the committees you know the structure was already defined into the verdict so it would be head by headed by the secretary of the health ministry and then there would be an anthropologist someone from the home ministry someone from social sector and then also a lawyer

[00:11:03] unbehave of LGBT community who was a pleaded that case so based on that structure the committee was formed and they did survey with questionnaire interviewing then visiting different sectors like scholars religious leaders the community members the families professors very sector of

[00:11:27] politicians at whom to list the talk very sectors of the societies they also had a foreign country visit to see the visited Norway I think where same sex marriage was legalized already

[00:11:40] and then so they went talk to the politician there and the impact they also visited a family a lesbian couple who were raising two children and found it very normal you know the children

[00:11:54] were growing very healthy yeah and then they studied all of the countries who have already done either full marriage or civil union kind of thing so that sounds quite thorough so what were the outcomes of that study and what were the recommendations to the court they recommended the

[00:12:12] government that to allow full marriage because LGBT people are not less and then should be considered you know on a same ranking like the heterosexual couples so they recommended for full marriage and all the entitlements that the heterosexual married couple would have so after

[00:12:36] always said and done in 2007 one would expect the following years to be optimistic for the LGBT community Nepal is often even hailed as a beacon for LGBTQ rights in global spaces but as we know the following years were starkly regressive today in 2023 marriage is only legally recognized as

[00:12:58] the coming together of a man and a woman and not only did this make on previously gender neutral provision more narrow but it also went against our constitution with strictly states that no one

[00:13:09] can be discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation by the state or by any laws so can you talk briefly about this and share other events that significantly harm the LGBTQ

[00:13:22] well being in Nepal? I think the global attention and the hype really came because of this of whom go decision 2007 but also the following year I got elected as a member of parliament

[00:13:35] one-le-one in the first in the first in the year as openly gay member of parliament but then Nepal went in a mood of complete structural change so we decided to write a new constitution

[00:13:49] so there's not much attention to paid and any laws anything so we needed to have this guiding principle for the countries forward is a new constitution so we worked we drafted and then the constitution is relatively nice from a thing unfortunately the first constitution is simply

[00:14:07] was dissolved before it could promote get the the constitution itself but then second constitution is simply election took place and then they adopted the draft from the first so the first draft was extremely well written on the second draft because no one from the community was

[00:14:26] represented I wasn't there I had to vote to UK and then the party didn't then encourage anyone or took any one from the community so they took it down quite a lot so still in a four or five articles

[00:14:39] there are mentioned in a affirmative way in a positive way that provides guarantees equality and non-discrimination on the ground of sexual orientation and gender identities so that's a good sign and then of course it's only ten constitution in the world that does by the constitution

[00:14:58] so a lot of European countries who enjoys in other way but do not have constitutional guarantee so it's Nepalese handful of countries in that sense so in a way it's very true yeah it's we can hope for LGBT I have become particularly in South Asia also in Asia

[00:15:14] because of Nepal progress the India got huge pressure and they did struck down the sort of below they inherited it from the in a British colony and many other countries have done now the court case was still is still referred in many other verdicts judgment across the world

[00:15:35] but what happened after 2015 you know from the question second question to simply already the policy makers were because there was no one around and then it's it's very important

[00:15:45] to have included into the table a policy making so we really missed it and then you know there's a huge gap so I'm trying to encourage people to go into the joint politics now for a longer term solution

[00:15:58] so after the constitution they you know we needed to change the old Malokian the country code making it more modern but also in line with the new constitution so they decided to also split it up to civil code separate and the criminal code and then procedural ones

[00:16:16] so they worked on it were very aggressive and then I was like you know grinding my teeth while being in the UK not able to much but when we able to do online or something but you know

[00:16:28] you can't really do much online with the populist thing so they did say you know fully some of the community activists there you know when they go and ask for point out this the draft provision

[00:16:42] problematic this one of its only for the rest of the others we'll do a very special good one for you and as you do not listen to them that's you know to rely a national law supposed to include

[00:16:53] everyone if they're saying this kind of thing then they're cheating already do not believe it that's what I was telling but you know it already happened already passed approved but this is struggle now

[00:17:05] once it's done so you know undoing is much harder so we have to take it all to the their litigation processes or trying to convince a parliament when no one of yours is represented there

[00:17:20] it's you know him on this task so going back to the topic of same sex marriage to really illustrate the pains of the individuals I want to know Sunil what are we depriving the community of

[00:17:34] when we deprived them of marriage and other rights and legal recognitions see the relationship that we want to be recognized it's not just emotional bonding there are a lot of other things comes around

[00:17:49] it for example a couple wants to operate a joint bank account they're living together they love each other it's a complete trust but because the matter is not recognized so the same

[00:18:01] six couple can not have a joint bank account and if they one of the partner gets sick and has some of the somebody else has to take a decision and we have for example in a coma or something

[00:18:13] emergency the person who loves can not take any decision because there's no relationship recognized so they had to call back to those family perhaps who have disowned their morality so it doesn't make you know feel good you don't feel safe so you can turn about the

[00:18:31] either for yourself or to your partner what would happen if an emergency thing but also if this great you know anxiety about what would happen when I die you know my partner cannot even conduct

[00:18:45] the funeral the last right he cannot even join perhaps and then the the property I have earned with hard work I cannot pass it to my partner what would happen when I die to him or her so that's

[00:19:00] kind of you know fear very genuine one see which is granted for the heterosexual couples here so that's a huge disparity discrimination by the state between the two citizens two type of

[00:19:13] citizens here it's not only that you know adoption is a problem and then not having a lot of rights and you are legally discriminated treat it as a second class or third class or fourth class

[00:19:28] you bound to you know get this slow self esteem in your subconscious so the progress is very difficult it adds to the you know mental complexity and then very easy to get depressed and anxious

[00:19:45] so mental health problems you know becomes real concern for this community relatively to the others who are enjoying all the privileges and rights so it's a lot of loss and then it's not a small community it's international studies suggest that LZBTI comprise the front 10% of the total population

[00:20:05] so it's a huge unit and percent of GDP perhaps who would have been much more productive have to struggle with their daily life you know spending time and paperwork fighting the discrimination so how can one become a productive and contribute to the whole social economy or

[00:20:23] national economy so it's country also losing to it there was all magnitude of study saying having discriminatory laws and practices against the BTI it perhaps impacts and you know 20% of your GDP so you know even if that even exaggerated it didn't we take it half 10% is huge number

[00:20:45] for country like Nepal and if we allow for example you know protection and equality it it it the benefits multiplies people become healthier the children who are growing a bit different than the social norm would not worry about much of their own sexual behavior or identities

[00:21:07] they would do much better in their studies and professions then you know Nepal still has good income source national income source from the tourism the tourism would go up if they welcome the

[00:21:19] LZBTI tourist because you know in the in the west they have recognized this long ago and then they call it you know pink dollar or something and the two professionals working you know

[00:21:31] and not much expenditure on children next life as well as you have huge much more disposable income and then so it's very lucrative market for the west the LZBTI tourism is which Nepal

[00:21:44] have been missing for a long time we have giant countries both China and India the rich class is growing there and then it's a significant you know LZBTI population which perhaps would come

[00:21:57] and spend their money in Nepal so even in economic point view it's very beneficial to have providing all the equality and non-discrimination for LZBTI communities so how do you explain these regressive moves from the state not only is the state willing to behave unconstitutionally but

[00:22:16] it also turns a blind eye to the data the research committee produced which as you mentioned shows the benefit of LZBTI care marriage not just in preserving human rights but as DHS mentioned

[00:22:28] but also in the economy itself so why do you think is the state still not willing? But state is you know it's a machinery it's a system combined by all the individuals and

[00:22:40] individuals have their own you know belief and then there are a lot of persons in the bureaucracy also in the politics in the parliament who perhaps they're not perhaps we definitely believe that

[00:22:50] you know homosexuality is is some kind of less or not good for the healthy society perhaps but also there is a fear they think if they allow semesters marriage we all the men then will

[00:23:03] marry only men and then the woman will marry woman who will reproduce or will recreate kind of thing I've heard those you know from few people who asked it you know and so they should know that

[00:23:15] you know not everyone is gay not everyone is heterosexual either and then countries have like even Africa South Africa have recognized semesters marriage since 1996 and then the demography has not changed the population has in decline at all it's just the other people also have same you

[00:23:36] know they're loving relation is recognized and honored by the state as to the heterosexual men and women so the fear of you know one is humanity but also you know those privileged

[00:23:52] class who are in the top to feed their ego they need somebody less always so that they can enjoy the fake kind of you know ego so they want to have this disparity so it's very odd and awkward

[00:24:09] for them to sit at the same table same level to those who they have looked down upon for sense centuries so it's going to take a long time for them to realize but it's not true is now you know

[00:24:22] you can't say look down upon somebody saying you're different you know it's not ethical anymore you know we all know it so you know caste-based discrimination gender-based discrimination geographic base or or because a facial feature the way you look or the way you refer

[00:24:44] your sexual expression or gender identity you can't discriminate to an other human because they are not causing any harm to you they want to enjoy their life so why you

[00:24:56] imposing your value your way of life on others so it's not possible it's not okay you know any longer to still sit up on the top and then look at this down and point fingers so I was very disappointed

[00:25:13] when I hear the response from law ministry to the women ministry because women ministry finally drafted this same sex marriage bill kind of bill preliminary and they send it to the opinion from law ministry the law ministry responded asking a question and the fifth question was

[00:25:32] really deeply troubling the said what's the financial burden to the state if they allow same sex marriage so if they ask that kind of question to a citizen who supposed to be there to facilitate

[00:25:45] the citizens right and protect them if they ask if they are concerned about you know economic burden to this state you can understand the level of deep prejudice they're having in their subconscious

[00:25:59] so there's no way out except these bureaucrats these politicians must learn now you know we're not going to teach them every time it's been 20 years more than 20 years so they can't say we don't

[00:26:12] understand we don't know anymore if you don't then either leave or study you know we're not your servant that we feel we are obliged to go and and treat their intellectual games something yeah you must understand all the human rights now you must understand the countries demography

[00:26:33] the people the nature etc and then fulfill your duty that you are here to appeal the people's rights and protection and if if the people they're more marginalized pay more attention

[00:26:48] invest more in the policy in the programs in the budget. Hi there this is somit de nebanie from policy underpinna zeng we hope you're enjoying parts by b i as you know treating the show takes a lot of

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[00:27:47] sports IPL every little bit helps and we can't thank you now for your support and let's get back to the episode. So for the larger half of its history patriarchy has really been deep-seated in

[00:28:01] apale society which as you said is reproduced through a norm to the structures and values. Let us inch a little into the social and private aspects of this issue now. How is the Nepali public perception of the LGBTQ community today? Do we see progress or is public

[00:28:19] perception and response still a barrier to breakthrough like gay marriage and their effective implementation? Look it's not just patriarchy society also you know very heteromunical based on certain religion and caste. So I do find very amusing to see a lot of tolerance especially among those

[00:28:40] you know lower strata of the community is very supportive. Indigenous communities have less of a problem. I wouldn't call it no problem but very less and very tolerant and very inclusive and a lot of festivals you see have a lot of sexual diversity displays gender diversity

[00:28:57] displays to display whether it's gay jatra or maroni dance for example or ropajatra or the duck in i'dan's you know and there's some some festivals which requires you know a third

[00:29:11] gender is there are a lot of date he's whether it's in you know bhajranabhadism or marmhaia now or or hinderism or panthrik you know practices a lot of you know gender neutral date he's we see them

[00:29:24] or same sex loving god goddesses we see so inherently it's it never been you know homophobic or gender phobic culture but slowly patriarchy comes here since last 2000-25 and years slowly taking over it hasn't completely wiped out the patriarchy elements is still there

[00:29:47] as you know as are still revered in katman to valley there's maitan or the mother goddesses are worshipped in whenever we see a big nice stone or big tree or the two rivers you know coming together

[00:30:00] are the you know two the hills in the the guires or top of the hill is always you know one of the other maitan where there's manna kamana and a pona or so many others you know chindamastha is there

[00:30:12] and so it's such a very you know a major country historically but the chatchains in last 2005 and it is so we find it tolerant here but also the philosophies are very you know compassionate

[00:30:27] oriented and then also the karmathayuri is here so not much justice and punishment but people come in a different form or the sentient beings come in different forms and also take different forms it's

[00:30:42] their own karma you know guides their destination next destination so in a way they do see whatever whoever you know nature is it it's his or her nature nothing to do with with the you know sin or

[00:30:58] or some kind of or somebody else you know god or somebody so that there is acceptance in that sense diversity were all divers we are all different but in a sole level or the ultimate level it's also

[00:31:14] equal because in infinite life everyone comes and repeats different sorts of life different nature of life so people do know that do they may have been in the past man woman or third gender or others or even ancient sentient beings like ants or serpent or elephant anything

[00:31:34] or they would be coming next life also so in that sense they do see a bit of you know epitheos sympathy or whatever but then there is also this unfortunately patriarchy but very his hegemonical

[00:31:46] hierarchical society there's ruling class been last 500 years or so and then yeah so 2005 and it years the patriarchy the one man were you know dominating this part of the land then slowly it's the two cast become chetries and brahmanas now last I think 100 years so it's more

[00:32:10] brahmana than chetries now it's completely brahmana all that party you know leaders of brahmana so they are I do think they understand they do believe in karma theory etc but it's very difficult

[00:32:23] for them to give up the privileges they have that's why the resistance is here I don't see a very ideological problem or a philosophical problem to accepting it the difficulty for them is to give up their

[00:32:36] privileges that's why resistance to even accepting in including the women even in a constitution guarantees 33% of women representation still not happening so giving up your privilege it's extremely difficult for them but I again tell them that it's you know you can't have it

[00:32:55] unjustly just for yourself or able learn to give up long to share and then make this you know society much healthier yeah I guess nobody with power would willingly give it up anything yeah but looking

[00:33:10] on the brighter side are there any wins that you may have observed for the gender and sexual minorities and about recently since since 2007 so a lot of changes here particularly I see a lot of

[00:33:24] young people coming out much more easily than we have and would perhaps with less opposition the social media perhaps have helped it to get the information knowledge also finding quick you know comfort with the friendship and things like that and and peer groups etc so yeah

[00:33:46] and then much more visible now with the the organisations and more people coming I see they have a new way of creating visibility they do flash mob every now and then they also doing it June

[00:34:03] has a bright month which I disagree because this should do a bright month or bright day of bright week in other months where it's cooler nicer but because it's happening in America or Europe

[00:34:14] they just copy it which is not you know conducive and it's a American history it's okay we respect others history but you celebrate your own history or march for your own cause here not do

[00:34:27] not copy and then it's a climate was this disaster you know June is best month in Newark and London but here it's like soaring 40 degree Celsius I saw the people trying to do you know in Nepal

[00:34:40] Ghanjor or itharya or in Iran be rednagar everyone sweating even for the allies to come and join it's very difficult you know and when that's kind of soaring heat everyone's take google inside

[00:34:53] it's not a celebration you know so blindly copying others is you know I'm calling it pride I don't agree with this they should find better month there's so many other festivals the local days here

[00:35:05] for example the day below diamond was firm should be another definitely a pride day or the Supreme Court give us this fantastic verdict in 2007 you know an appeal should be also a nice month

[00:35:19] should be celebrated as a pride day is a local festival going on for centuries here Gajatra Rupancatra, Dakhini dance whole week long and then you have this old month of la cave festival you know

[00:35:31] is associated with greatness that's man but perform in a big jama make up long hair almost comes as you know middle gender or more feminine in that than then more masculine so so many elements that

[00:35:47] you can trace to your own roots and cultures and celebrate it but it's happening young people you know and also blindly copying the concept of identity you don't like with that gender or middle

[00:36:00] gender or even local term like myth, mythi, should be yeah they're adopting gay lesbian or a transman or trans woman you know and the idea of the healthy person you know this psychological

[00:36:14] misguidance from the West is coming to the think they're born in wrong body and they have it gender dysphoria it's very Western concept so it's a healthy person but you know because of these psychology they have the philosophy they have there's only true gender is man and woman

[00:36:29] if you do not cannot become a man you better become a woman by transitioning you whatever you know physical alteration or something and vice versa so this very Western concept here we have you know

[00:36:43] more than five six genders all is accepted in different traditions whether it's debaton or the mountain region here or a bajariana here or even Hinduism, genism but Buddhism yeah six genders and then

[00:36:57] this is so there plenty of choices for you to find you know comforting identity but it's expression in a healthy way it don't have to be rigidly copying and then feeling that even healthy and then going through this expensive surgery and taking hormones which perhaps not necessary

[00:37:17] and it's also long term it's very unhealthy yeah so the so time to really look again so I suggest this young generation not to blindly copy everything West does. So I guess Western influence has made

[00:37:31] the youth more compassionate and empathetic towards the LGBTQ but also left a very strong mark in the way that we celebrate the community. Not just celebrate but also you choosing your own

[00:37:44] core self in a bit of you know trying to westernize and then seeing Western model as a standard has been counterproductive it's becoming a problem in the West also the health system is now really struggling because when they recognize gender dysphoria as a disease then the health

[00:38:06] system is supposed to support them because in Europe you have everything is covered and it's hugely expensive and then you know people they give free hormones and then it doesn't work they change it

[00:38:16] added reduce it and then after a couple of years they want to come back and then because it takes a toll on your mental health so then whole detoxification your health mutation starts and people

[00:38:27] go regret and they want to come back and you know do the the desersory or something but which is not possible so it's a complex you know problem it has become even in the West and then finally

[00:38:39] you know fully becoming a woman or become a man whether it's possible or not possibly still a debate whether you know just doing your surgery, mom, mom, your male organs and putting a shape of

[00:38:52] a boy you know vagina would that make a you a woman full woman because you can't still have a period you can't can see baby can't still do rest feeding and then the other way around is more complicated

[00:39:05] so it becomes a discriminatory practice within your own community the female born who are masculine ways to transit and become a transparent it's almost impossible so that practice is discriminated within the same community because someone is born male gets easy access and cheaper somebody

[00:39:24] born female is discriminatory and then today would never become a man as a trans woman you know a male born transgender who would easily become a woman and produce a medical certificate

[00:39:38] and become a woman in a passport in gender so it's a discriminated self and then now a bit of concern in the West not just a bit of huge concern there's a whole society is divided in the West

[00:39:50] Jackie Roland wrote article three years ago a hugely hugely contagious and divided the whole West into some are supporting oh it's because of their feeling we supported and the other said no no we

[00:40:03] support them because who they are not trying to become who they are not and then the Olympics last year allowed for six years to compete the trans woman with women but then women athletes who

[00:40:16] you know then there are a lot of time and resources energy to make them fit and win the metal and then they lose with the with the trans woman because physically the born is much stronger

[00:40:28] they have and so they're losing and running and swimming and everything and also some countries having a bit more liberal they allow a trans woman without surgery still having a penis and then

[00:40:41] but allowed to have a women passport and now they had a problem because women spaces is somehow spatial for some time in certain setting like swimming or going to sauna or breastfeeding places

[00:40:56] or in the prison inmate so there was a scandal happened when few years ago in Canada the trans woman was you know put into the same prison cell with women and then because it was a long

[00:41:07] term prison sentence so the trans woman raped another inmate woman so it's kind of ripped out you can't really you know just that way and then believe that because of your

[00:41:20] look and expression you have become complete woman a complete man I feel not already born so here in eastern philosophies you says you modify yourself become make up modify upgrade yourself become

[00:41:34] best of yourself but not somebody you are not so moving the conversation back to the topic of same sex marriage how can we build on the grassroots efforts for marriage equality made so far so that they can translate into the larger consolidation of rights and recognition

[00:41:54] of gender and sexual minorities at institutional levels the regular process to have sex marriage is the government you know draft the bill and then the cabinet approves it and then send it to the parliament then it goes to the Parliament Legislature Committee they consult and then when

[00:42:15] it's ready they put it to the Parliament Assembly for vote or amendment if they need it and then finally pass it from there but it's going very slow so this is two red petition again and this Supreme Court now being heard one from the lesbian organization called Methany

[00:42:32] one from Blue Dam in society recently filed so they are asking to you know speed ordering government to speed up the law making process but also demanding to have interimereally so that until the parliament passed the law there's a separate you know provision or way out

[00:42:54] and there's a possibility that the court may come with that decision asking okay you know have a bill at least within two years they can give you know timeline to the government but not the Parliament but at the meantime while the government and Parliament passed the law look

[00:43:11] we have this you know high courts where marriage is registered in each province have a separate file desk register and keep it separately until the law is passed so that allows the

[00:43:23] already living committed in a same circulation to go and register the marriage so that's the hope now building upon that discourse what about the Nepali people what can be done to alleviate this

[00:43:36] stigma around gender and sexual minorities in Nepal the job is for the government should have been and always have been because if you know a community that is discriminated unjustly it's the government job to protect them and educate those you know perpetrators for example

[00:44:02] to have an knowledge and an understanding about this community so it didn't long but there's a book you know school curriculum class seven and class eleven haven't included some into the text book around sexual and gender minorities the problem is the the teachers are not trained there's no

[00:44:21] guidebook with them to help and they do go through the internet and not everyone is a comfortable with English but it's also culturally very different when you google it you come around

[00:44:35] gay lesbian and trans men and trans women only but not so much about the local cultural thing here but also confusion and they still find this problem difficult to discuss difficult teach so I

[00:44:50] have witnessed a lot of schools and colleges just avoiding this topic and the teacher saying either you're in a giggling and then really treating at this topic you know with mercury or it's

[00:45:04] completely telling the students to look you know this is the topic I'm not comfortable or I don't know so you do your best by whatever resources you find it online or something so it's very badly

[00:45:17] treated this topic into the schools and colleges so the government should do it invest more on a teach trade you know trained the teachers on this topic perhaps this should also come up with the

[00:45:30] some guidebooks and helping materials that is culturally more appropriate here that has more of eastern ideas around it but also you know make the other you know supportive environment the information readily available for example the biology of sexuality and gender the physiology

[00:45:56] the psychology the modern science what it tells the what the you know cultural or mythological aspect of it what are these festivals and things like that but also make it more you know discussion like

[00:46:11] you know dinner table discussion like this or friends having tea and can discuss it so introduce it in a more sort of normal manner that it becomes an easy topic to discuss so and it's

[00:46:27] started with the very technical aspect from it for example you know the parents can teach their children you know it's not just sun growing up man daughter going a woman there could be a

[00:46:41] differences what are these difference you know marking that we notice and how we deal with them yeah ultimately you shouldn't even deal with it because it's normal for everybody and everyone has their own different growing up and expressing themselves so talking to young children is very important

[00:47:03] not just giving a stereo you know type pictures of growing up man in hormonal you would grow like this you would grow like this you may grow like this also you know Chris Krassen and some other forms

[00:47:16] then to the adults teenagers you talk about the sexuality sexual expressions sexual practices the pleasure not just the guilt not the guilt of the pleasure around and also the other you know important thing about sexual diseases transmissions unwanted pregnancy all these things you know

[00:47:36] you need to talk it's not just you know sexual gender minorities sexuality and expression is a problematic but whole reproduction and pleasure is a problem in this in this country because no one

[00:47:47] talks about it properly and people avoid the parents avoid to ask when a child asks how did I you know come to how do I come to this world they say no no it's good you know they shouldn't lie any more

[00:48:00] about it so make it more of normal conversation and then that's how you need to learn from this tantric you know my meteorical traditions well these topics were very normal and then very you know

[00:48:13] down towards the day-to-day kind of conversation nobody frowns aside away from this yeah I believe the court also recently recognized same sex marriage as valid between a citizen and a non citizen

[00:48:28] so how does that work into the entire equation of marriage equality it doesn't do any changes directly except the non-citizen who married to a citizen of Nepal in a same sex relation recognizing we've got a spouse visa so the decision makes that much direct impact

[00:48:50] indirectly the decision has given very good suggestions asked repeatedly again on two occasions after 2007 for government to speed up and you know allows a same sex marriage relationship legally recognized but also you know that ensures that government cannot go back even though they did take

[00:49:13] lime a time they take time they can take longer time but the court makes them impossible not to recognize otherwise we'll go back to the court again and then they will perhaps issue more

[00:49:26] you know more stricter order so they know it so that's why it's a couple of reasons I think I said the privilege of not to lose their share which is not their share it's the trick they've been doing

[00:49:40] it for at last 200 to 300 years the second is LGBTI or the sexual gender minority community is not a priority to the government which is very unfortunate the political parties do not recognize this community as vote bang that's why they're not paying much attention either

[00:49:57] so in that sense I see you know until unless LGBTI come together and join the politics they would know and this year it's a handful of you know a third gender or transgender people with

[00:50:09] either loud makeup and bright you know fashion doing standing in the streets are doing sex work or something or some organization protesting against the government demanding rights they don't see a big boat bank as 10% if we make them realize they would do it very fast

[00:50:28] and then the other thing is bureaucracy is very lazy in this country it's very difficult even they are not lazy the whole system is so slow and until you go and change it it's just the same

[00:50:43] table for years and years and years so I found you know the based on the committee's suggestion and the file the committee's report went to the government and went to the women ministry

[00:50:56] they took years and then so they send the you know ask the law minister to send their opinion and the law minister took one year just to send up happy response and then now it's been three years

[00:51:11] already in the response from the law minister to the women ministry sitting and you know eating dust into the cabinet so you have to really do it change up which is very unfortunate yeah

[00:51:26] so I guess if we want to see any change we need to quite literally take things into our own hands but as we strive to make the Nepali state and society more just an inclusive of its gender and

[00:51:39] sexual minority citizens are there stories or lessons from around the globe that we can learn from yeah plenty for example when South Africa got independent you know from the upper tide Nelson Mandela came and he came very busy in a releader and become a first president and when

[00:51:58] they wrote the constitution they embraced everyone so so he was very persistent and very aware about no one left behind so they had this fantastic constitutional guarantee I even

[00:52:12] of to marriage for the same sex so that's a huge you know inspiration so we looked up a lot to the South African so one leader can really do a lot if he as she is his visionary and inclusive and have

[00:52:30] the sympathy and really once really see the future of the country on diversity and non-discrimination and you know just values which was not happened didn't happen here they give a lot of promises here

[00:52:48] but they ultimately turn out that you know they throw the king and they want to become another king just like that it happened then we see the you and you know human rights after second

[00:53:00] world war when they established was really you know hopeful and there's a general assembly who have asked them and that's can mention particularly the international covenant and civil and political rights and then also economic social and cultural rights they were the foundation

[00:53:21] you see a lot of inequality on intellectual level from them but also Nepal having a party of them this should have never had this you know disc-miggy laws on the ground of sexual orientation and gender

[00:53:35] because they already signed and become the party and you know protocol of the ICCR so when you become a country we become a party and also science protocol that convention you know superset the law

[00:53:51] so now they should allow same six marries because of that mechanism but you know Nepal don't work on rule of law it's very ad hoc and then if you have influence you can do anything even for you

[00:54:09] know to get a gender identity recognized in your passport or then different from your birth as they 11 people have got passport as woman well they were both said because it was made because they

[00:54:23] were perhaps some access to power like Santa Spanthah who was into the army and his son become daughter so within very short period of time he had the citizenship ID and passport look now how many

[00:54:38] children with a single mother still struggling to get citizenship ID here but there was in a gender change everything changed and then he was able to she was able to fly within the short time abroad

[00:54:50] that's the thing happened so these country is run by those privileged classes and then for them it's nothing is impossible for others everything is so tough yeah so from our conversation here today

[00:55:08] I've gathered that it seems that there is nowhere to go for Nepal other than to legalize gay marriage it's just a matter of when right so wrapping up are there any final messages you may

[00:55:19] have for our listeners it's just it's not just matter of when it's just a matter of how the how makes the speed of the process so I would ask the community members especially those NGOs working now on LGBTI rights to intervene in multiple fronts one is litigation process

[00:55:41] so there are cases going on into the court participate it you know invite and involve good lawyers but also do some more remedia campaign to support this thing but also hold your MPs accountable

[00:55:57] from your e-t, electoral area wherever you are from call them send the messages you know post them and social media yeah you can ask them gently humble you don't have to be you know

[00:56:09] coercive or abusive but gently ask what is my rights you know why I'm not allowed to marry especially when the constitution is already recognizing my equality and rights but also the Supreme Court have given this order 15 years ago why you as a lawmaker not

[00:56:33] not fulfilling your duty and protecting my law simply ask that question to you representative parliamentarians you like bodies but also you know go and work with the bureaucracy it's a lot of following up needed hold the bureaucracy accountable make them feel the pain

[00:56:53] that because of their delay because I don't see any public oppositions from the parties and the ministers or the cabinets or the Prime Minister so when you see them they also yeah we're doing

[00:57:05] we're supportive a super-haps well who is who is causing the delay is it the minister it's the or the bureaucracy so we need to clearly see and a lot people blame for the bureaucracy then you know

[00:57:19] if it is true then it's beat it up if it's not and tell us who is causing the delay so I asked the community to intervene from multiple sector but also you know when it's the country of

[00:57:31] marginalized people if we're marginalized today you would be the tomorrow marginalized one so all other sectors you know also support this cause whoever however you can it's sexuality and gender minorities issues are very similar to the women issue so the women lobby should impress this

[00:57:57] as well because they are much more stronger and also way bigger in numbers so we are hoping really that the the women lobby and feminists and women rights organization also taking up this issue

[00:58:12] because this gender is patriarchy which problem but within LGBT there are a lot of women as well there's being there also women the third generation are very similar and they're into six people

[00:58:24] so the women should also take it up but on modern time on 25th century you know to be a man meaning you know not to control over anyone but be a very gentle man and then respect equality

[00:58:38] diversity and support LGBT rights. Thank you so much for that insightful conversations in the end and thank you so much for sitting with us today we wish you luck for you and all your future

[00:58:51] endeavors. Thank you. Thanks for listening to Parts by P.I. I hope you enjoyed Chedon's conversation with Saneal on the road bumps to marriage equality in the past. Today's episode was produced by

[00:59:06] Nia Jonri with support from Riddish Sapkuta, Sonia Jimmy and Mee Kushiham. The episode was edited by Riddish Sapkuta and our theme music is courtesy of Rohit Chakya from Zindabhaan. If you like today's episode

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